Last night, after writing my post, I hounded M to write HIS version. He's been promising to write something for my bloggity-blog for some time now, and last night he tried putting it off again. He doesn't have time right now, he says, he's trying to finish prepping the bedroom so we can paint.
Well, I figured out a solution. An interview! I sat down with M, asked him some questions, typed up his responses, and here you have it - M's version of yesterday's topic.
Naw, I didn't really care about the issues that one could face being a women in society, especially in Pakistani society. Half of the population doesn't understand. I had absoluetly no idea about any of that kind of stuff. All the resources around the world are mostly for men, from going to the market to school or....anything, really. Like entertainment, it's not for women there. At all. Even eating out is not really for women. Average women, at least. Not...you know, some women do go out, but not the majority.
So how do you think you became a feminist?Education, first. Society treats women differently here. And then you.
What about me?
You know, you were my first experience with a woman. I never really talked to a woman in person before and asked about thier feelings. My relationship with women...in Pakistan..even my mother and sister, was totally different. Mostly about what was for dinner or what clothes I needed washed. Also, I was responsible for taking care of you.
Taking care of me? (shocked look) What are you talking about?
You know, as a man in you life, I had to find ways to make you happy, find out what's important to you, what matters to you as a woman. I never thought about those things, even really for my family.
Do you remember seeing The Vagina Monologues?
Yeah.
What do you remember about it?
It was funny.
FUNNY? What?
Uh, I mean. (backpedalling...) You know, it was interesting. How men treat women, for most men its...you know, we don't even care what it's like. To be a women - physical, emotional - challenges one can have in the society. It was a good introduction.
Do you remember standing up to T?
Yeah, I did. And he was successfully able to make even more fun of me, too. Being nice to somebody is being weak to him.
But it still took you a long time before you would call yourself a feminist. Why?
It takes time, you know. It's a long term process. It made me think that the things that are important to me, they're also important to women, so it took me a while to see all that.
How do you feel about being a Pakistani man who's a feminist?
Outcast..... Strange.
But you won't stop talking about it. You're the one always forcing and driving these conversations with these topics.
Yeah. There is a need to educate Pakistanis. People don't think this is important. It's something I think is really important and I can't stand hearing people say stupid things.
What do you want to educate people about?
Treat women as humans, that's #1. And allow them access to things that you take for granted. For anything - choice - free will. Women in Pakistan don't have that. They're free to make what they would like to cook tonight.
There ARE pioneering women in Pakistan.
Yeah, a handful. And a lot of time they're still subject to a lot of external pressure from the society.
What will you tell your son about women?
Respect. And respect their opinion. And treat them the way you want to be treated.
What will you tell your daughter about Pakistani society?
Hmmm....Now that's a question. Uhh...stay away?
That's not true!
Yeah, I'll tell her that things are not ideal there. Hopefully they will improve one day. Hopefully she can help change things.
What about when she goes there, her day to day life when visiting there.
You probably have to fight for your rights, and for yourself to be recognized as an individual. And there will be lots of obstacles in achieving what you want to achieve. But you have to believe in yourself and be strong. And we're there to help, always.
What's the biggest opposition you face when you're talking about these things in public?
Uh, the first problem people are going to have is they say you are giving them a lot of freedom this way, and you'll create problems for yourself. Even women are against these ideas, too, a lot of the time. But the men are going to say that the house will probably be in so much turmoil, there will be a power struggle. Basically people are afraid of losing their control, which is very important to Pakistani men.
Aren't you tired of it sometimes?
No.
No?
No, I'm not tired, but a lot of people just don't understand, don't even realize, so somebody's got to say something about it.
Do you think you've changed any minds?
Uh....maybe my brothers? Or their wives. Maybe they see the way I treat you and the baby, I don't know. Not a lot, people are stubborn, and its totally ingrained in the society there.
Do you face a lot of ridicule about this from your friends?
Um....not anymore. I don't keep friends who would say those kinds of things. Maybe [name redacted], the other day he was amused by the idea that I would make tea while you sat and talked to our guests.
So what do you do then?
I just let it pass it.
Could you have ever imagined you'd be talking about theses things?
No.
Do you ever get tired of fighting about this? A lot of these conversations don't end well.
No। I think it's good, it's part of life, if you're alive you'll have conflicts and arguments. These kind are the important kind.
Our interview subject refused to take a break from work for a photo shoot.