Whenever my in-laws see my son naked, they say "Shame, shame!" to him. Directly to him. It is said so often and regularly among the Pakistanis that I know that EVERYone who sees it would say that - aunts, cousins, and even friends. And it's been said to every other child in M's family in the same way that even a FOUR year old once said it to my six week old baby. People even say it to their OWN babies as they change their diapers. It's pretty ingrained, is what I'm saying.
It's said in a lighthearted, joking manner, and it's not meant to be a reprimand. But it makes my head spin. There are so many initiatives and books and articles out there about how to teach kids to love and properly take care of their bodies, the idea that someone would want to teach body shame to any child, especially an infant, is just something I can't understand.
I was once at a dinner party with three other Pakistani American couples who are good friends of ours, all of whom were born and raised in American to parents of Pakistani descent. One of the mothers had to change the shirt of her daughter and while the baby was shirtless for a few seconds, I mentioned how I couldn't stand how my in-laws would say this thing while my son was undressed. One of the mothers there said "What's wrong with that? I say that to my baby too."
At the time, I guess I hadn't fully figured out my opposition to it. I just stammered about how I thought teaching shame to a baby couldn't be a good thing, about how perhaps it was an American culture thing to teach people to love and be proud of their bodies. The mother countered that she didn't want her daughter to think she could just get naked in public whenever she wanted, and I said I didn't think that early diaper changes generally taught kids that public nudity was okay, and anyway if my kids started shedding his clothes all over the world, that would be a different issue I would have to address anyway. The only other point I could effectively communicate was that I didn't understand why people would want to say this to kids when the kids themselves had nothing to do with the undressing. *I* am the one who took off his clothes, but they're telling *him* that he should be ashamed!
But now I have thought through it a little bit more, and I can explain it simply: Modesty and shame are very different things. Of course we all want to teach our children modesty - that thing that will let them know that running around naked when they're older is wrong. Shame, on the other hand, will be the thing that makes they hate their own body for the rest of their lives, in public and in private. Not a good thing. Modesty can be surely be taught without resorting to shame, right?
Even before that conversation at that party, I had mostly remedied the situation. I decided that this kind of talk wasn't good for my son to hear and now we always - always - go to the other room for diaper changes, and close the bathroom door for bath and potty time. I don't think my son should hear that, even if he also hears me articulating why I think it's wrong, so M and I have just tried to eliminate it entirely.
24 comments:
I like your thinking!
I recently read The Age of Shiva by Manil Suri. The (Hindu Indian) mother was bathing her son and washed his "shamey" (or shami, I can't remember how he spelled it) (ie, penis). I wonder if that's related to what your Pakistani friends/relations say?
Me and my wife are both Pakistani born, yet didn't go the "shame shame" route. When my parents were around, I can remember them saying that to her even though she was a few months old.
IMO, it's to do with the extreme importance of not getting naked. You can call it modesty but I think it's a little overboard.
OMG....I can't believe you wrote about this?! I just recently for the FIRST time heard my husband say this to our son.
He was trying to dress him after bringing him to the potty and the baby took off running. He was taunting my husband, waiting for him to get close then sprinting across the room, rocking back and forth, saying na na na because he knew he was faster than him lol, and my husband stopped and said
"eww...shame shame...look at you. You're naked shame, eww" with his hand over his mouth as if it was something so awful.
Busy doing my own thing, I normally don't pay much attention but this made me stop dead in my tracks. I watched him, watched my son's reaction-which thankfully was one of no concern, it was a cat and mouse game to him-and the rest of the day I was bothered as to why he would tell a baby that?
I have always taught my children about modesty(the older ones) and was extremely careful how because I never want my children to have self image issues(I pray each day they don't learn by example) and I believe that this way surely sends across a clear message and WILL affect them for the rest of their lives in how they view their bodies and their feelings on shame . I can clearly see, without going into detail, how this tactic/saying used has affected my husband in certain situations.
I am waiting to hear him say it again-if he does-I will most certainly end that right there!
Good thinking on you and M's part thier. I can understand where you are coming from. I don't have children but when I do I would not want them to hear that either.
My feelings exactly.
Good post. I would not allow any family members to say such things to my (hypothetical) children.
I never really thought of that... i can't remember if my stepfather (pakistani) ever said that but i do remember him saying 'CHICHI!' alot. Dnt know if thats because of nudity.....
Anyway, i think your right in not wanting your son to hear 'shame'. You can voice the importance of modesty with out making him ASHAMED when he never even did anything wrong.
I was born and raised in Pakistan and have seen this thing happening quite often to children. And I have no reason to believe that it never happened to me. Based on my experience, your conclusion that telling children shame-shame makes them hate their bodies is quite unfounded.
Barring probably a few exceptions which I never encountered in the huge circle of my friends and relatives, all it does is to make an individual averse to the idea of being nude in public.
And that is not to encourage you to do that, by the way. Just an impulsive clarification that we do not hate our bodies in anyway.
While I do empathize with you (Gori Wife), I have to agree with Brickwall. Kids are tough and little things like that do not 'emotionally scar' them for life.
I also applaud the way you handle this situation. I really enjoy reading about your parenting techniques and the research you have done into these different child-rearing topics (not warming bottles, letting the baby sleep by themselves, this, etc).
I agree that I wouldn't want people to say this to future children of mine. It seems to be that it has the potential for distorting body image.
I remember reading an article about "baby nudity" in the NY Times a while back (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/16/garden/16nudity.html) when compared to this I think there are clear differences between the "nudity" of changing a diaper and the child going through an "I choose nudity" stage.
I never really thought about it, but I completely agree with you. My parents didn't just say "shame shame" when we were undressed (while taking a bath, or something totally innocuous like that), but inadvertantly taught me that was the actual word for nudity. I don't think I learned there was another word for it until I was 6 or 7! Good for you for addressing it early.
Yes, I also got the "shame shame" thing growing up. No body image issues here, Alhamdolillah. We didn't do it to our niece when she was younger but do it now at 2.5 years when she is trying to run buck naked even when there are strangers in the house. As you said it's basically ingrained into us.
Another thing one has to realize that for a lot of Pakistanis English is a second language. In our heads we don't connect shame, shame directly with being ashamed. In fact I didn't connect it until this post. "Shame, shame", to me meant "oh look you are naked!"
We have two versions of "shame, shame" for my niece. One when we are alone with her, this is the playful 'shame, shame'. We say this 'pyaar se' (playfully). The other is when she is trying to run buck naked refusing to get dressed. This is the 'haww shame, shame'. This is usually reserved for when she is running around naked or trying to take her clothes off for no reason infront of company.
May be whenever this 'shame, shame' business started somewhere it was trying to make the child feel ashamed but now with widespread usage of the phrase it has lost the feeling ashamed connotation for us, especially since our mothers and other relations didn't use the accompanying facial expressions that usually go along with phrases that are meant to make you feel ashamed.
Interesting. Yep I don't think the "shame shame" thing will scar the kids for life either, and I can't say that loving our bodies is something that Americans, especially girls/women, are taught by our own culture.
But I have also felt the sting of annoyance before when at times people would tell me things like I should try to cover my daughter's privates while changing her. I guess it is just one of those cross cultural so called 'clashes.'
I also think that in some ways the concept of shame/shyness/modesty/embarrassment overlap semantically more in Urdu that they do in English. Like you have the expression/whole concept of 'sharm o hayaa' That principle isn't as valued on our spectrum of cultural mores by Americans as it is valued by PK people, and we practice it differently as well.
hmmph.
Well you're perfectly right in thinking this however 'shame,shame' is just a term for nudity and also the way my mom would say it, made me understand the concept of modesty instead of me getting issues about my self image. Like when I was young I had the tendency to sit with my legs apart *cringe*...so my mum would often say "saheeh tarha say bhatho, shame-shame ho rahi hay" (translation loosely: sit properly: you're exposing yourself)
Your kid being American and all, I can understand your concern. However, trust me, our parents are not trying to torture our self image when they say stuff like that :)
Your post sparked an interesting dinner party conversation last night. After explaining what you wrote I asked if Nepali parents do the same thing.
I was told that they do, but in a "cute way" and that none of the other guests found anything wrong with it (I think they thought it was kind of weird that I wouldn't want my kid to hear "shame shame").
I got a similar answers to what you heard ("it helps to teach modesty, so when the kids are older they don't run around naked") and also that it was an intimate gesture between loving adults and their kids... a cutesy little rhyme that wasn't supposed to mean offense "Shame Shame poppy shame, all the donkeys (or monkeys) know your name"
hmmm....
I can understand GW how you feel about it, because I think the words have a different meaning in Pakistani culture than they do in America. I wouldn't want to say or have it said to my child in English because I think the impact may be more negative depending on the person, i.e. to a child being raised in our culture as opposed to Pakistani culture. So the potential for crossed meanings would just make me want to discourage that.
I do think that some of the modesty issues that I have noticed, especially with my nieces, are a bit extreme compared to my cultural values. For example, my sil was very concerned that my nieces (5 and 7) never see me changing my son as an infant because it would be improper for them to see his privates. To me culturally, there is nothing inappropriate about others seeing a baby's privates as they are being changed, or taking a bath for example. If we were in opposite situations, I would not care if my daughters saw a male cousin (as an infant) being changed. They also would get upset if my son, now as a toddler (under 2), would try to run into a room or bathroom where they were changing. I don't understand the modesty requirements for such young children, and for my culture, seeing babies naked, such as siblings and cousins, is often an easy way to explain to young children about gender differences without having to say too much. But although I don't understand it, I do try to respect my SIL by changing my son in another room and trying to keep him from walking into a room where the girls are changing.
I have heard and used this phrase many times around children. To be specific, we actually rhyme "Shame Shame Puppy Shame" to the kid. Don't ask me where that came from. I heard it from my parents and relatives.
I see the whole phrase has been taken out of context here. I personally have never connected this phrase to any harm or Modesty. Its meaning, to me, is simple "Don't be naked" - said in a polite and playful way to a child. Sometimes to tease a naked child.
Some words have braoder meanings depending on the way it is used even though they're spelled and have just one meaning in dictionary. The intense/severity of some words vary from people to people depending on their first language.
From where I'm from "Shame" is not as harsh as it is used in US. It is often used in the context of the word "Shy" (not "disgrace").
There were so many words that struck me odd when I heard it used in US. Like "Freeze"....(I couldn't think of a better example right now. I'll write when I do)
I think that body image is a many-variabled thing, and while I don't necessarily think this kind of talk will universally lead to emotional scars, I don't think it adds anything POSITIVE to the development of a healthy body image. I do think it can, in fact, be harmful, as other commenters have even attested. I don't doubt the good intentions of those who would say it, but I'm still going to veto its use in my home. I would only repeat what I wrote in the post - surely there are ways to teach children not to be naked in public without using shame. I will let you know in 10 years if my approach backfires and my then-teenager spends his days running naked around town.
Southern Masala - I completely forgot about it until I read your comment, but once I heard someone say that a father should stop changing his daughter's diapers after the first year because at some point "it becomes inappropriate"? I was flabbergasted!
I know this.
In our household we give so much importance to accepting your body and thanking God for making you perfect that my son has given his willy a title and a surname it is called Mr. Willy Wonka!
Pakistanis, Asians, esp. South Asians are obsessed with nudity. Freud called it 'reaction formation'. When you begin to overtly hate and despise stuff just to hide how you're totally obsessed with it covertly. We teach our kids to be all covered up (esp girls) because god forbid we let them wear what they want because well, let's face it, Islam is really focussed on what to wear and what not to wear. Then there is this whole cultural thing added to it. Girls with dopattas and all that jazz.
I have two more things to say in the matter.
1. I have to somewhat agree with Brickwall. That it's so common to have associated slightest bits of nudity to modesty and thus forth that it barely reaches to any kind of consequences in our kids' brains. Youv'e chosen the right way though - you're obviously uncomfortable with the idea of kids shouting 'Shame shame' so you've taken him on the side to change his diapers. But really, it's just harmless fun and no one really gives anything about that.
2. Having read plenty of stuff about psychologically ill people and having met many people who have gone through childhood molestation without even having the voice to speak publicly about it, I think parents also take this in consideration. This is probably off-the-topic but when it comes to infants and toddlers, I think it's a more prudent course to not let your child wander off into the arms of strangers wearing nothing but his diapers.
My parents/random family members used to say that to me all the time when I was young (I guess I must've been quite old because I still remember it), and although I can't really put my finger on why, I know it made me feel so uncomfortable! I think it may have been because it wasn't by choice that I was standing in front of this person who was saying "shame, shame" to me and if I could, I definitely would've covered the body part in question..but I wasn't old enough to assert that my mom should take me in a private area to change me.
From my memories, I just remember it always bringing tears to my eyes because I felt like I was doing something really really wrong. But I also get that Pakistani parents/cousins/friends all say it in good humor.
Excuse me while I am totally stalking your blog and replying on OLD posts.
My white, American, Depression-era grandmother says "shame, shame" when my kids are naked. I am not sure if that helps or not. :-)
Hm, I come from the country of sauna. Every family goes to sauna and kids can bathe in sauna with their parents still when they are teenagers and even adults: like a mother with kids can go to sauna with the grandmother. In our saunas we are naked, not wrapped in a towel. I have heard that this has schocked even some Americans and they said it is pedophilia. But it is just our culture: since babies we are used to go to sauna with our parents, siblings, granparents, other relatives and friends. Since babies we are used to see naked bodies of opposite sex and of very different ages. Of course stranges usually don't go to sauna together. Like if a whole family is visiting us, we women go together and the men go separately together... Usually women want their husbands to take the kids with them so that they can rest and concentrate to female-talk :) I just wanted to post this to show how different cultures there can be when it comes to nudity. I have had desi-boyfriends and at first they have been very shy to go to sauna with me, but once they get used to it, they have relaxed and enjoyed the nudity and going to sauna and shower together. (Sauna is not for sex as it is wrongly presented in some sex&porn industy). We have corporation saunas and after a meeting there can be sauna for colleagues. Of course women and men go separately. Also our ministers and president have saunas to bathe with politicians etc. Many foreigners find sauna and being naked the biggest cultural schock here - but I also have heard that after the first schock they have got used to it and enjoy it the fullest. (Sauna here is very hot and humid, different from saunas in US).
Why do i get the feeling that your hubby's family is stuck in some kinda time warp?? seriously who does this shame shame bit anymore
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