When I try to speak Urdu, there are a lot of phonemes that my English-trained mouth just can't seem to make. The g/gh thing, the h/Kh thing. My Kh as in Khan is getting better, and I've almost mastered the half-r, half-d thing. But I'll never be able to roll my R's properly. Believe me, if my high school language teacher couldn't reach me in THREE YEARS, I don't think it'll ever happen. Oh, and the Gh like ghazals thing is difficult for me too. And there's a T thing - somehow there are two different kinds of Ts, and I can't even HEAR the difference between the two, much less pronounce them differently.
Other language speakers have similar issues. One of the phonemes that is especially difficult for Hindi and Urdu speakers to master is the difference between V and W. They often pronounce both as if they're one hybrid letter than sounds like a mix between the two.
The most common example is West and Vest. A lot of desis I know pronounce them the same way, and some actually can't even hear a difference between the two words when I say them. M had this same issue when I first met him, but speaking to a white girl all day for the last six years has really changed his accent a lot. He now has no problem with it - unless we've been in Pakistan for a while, or he's been speaking in Urdu a lot, or sometimes when he's just thinking so fast his mouth can't keep up - then sometimes he relapses back to the V/W hybrid. I go to school four nights a week, and my boys stay home together those nights and speak in Urdu. Sometimes at the end of the week, when M has spent four night this way, I can hear a V creeping back into his Ws.
Perhaps this is a terrible thing to fess up to, but we actually kind of use the V/W thing as a way to try and determine how desi someone is, or how recent an immigrant they are. (Or how much Zee TV they watch at home!) I know it's not a scientific or accurate measure of someone's des-ocity, but it's something I always notice!
Now, don't let this bother you if you have this language issue. It's nothing bad - like I said, I have a LOT more urdu phonemes that I can't pronounce properly. And even within America, there are regional phonetic differences. There's no right or wrong, no one is being judged or made fun of here at The Gori Wife Life!
Ve love everyone!
15 comments:
At least you can speak Urdu- I only understand bits & pieces here and there- my children totally understand but they respond back in English...
InshaAllah, when I get a moment to breathe, that's the next thing on my list to conquer- the hunny would appreciate that- I could speak to his family for myself! lol
the goras at my work place keep tellin me that i don do my Vs and Ws properly and mix em up...
i tell them i jus cant... lol !!!
they also hav troubl bcz apparently i speak too fast for them !! lol
My husband has straight v/w and he says that was a focus in his English medium education as a kid, lots of vest/west exercises. He is also pretty good with accents, and his accents sounds more American when we are in the US, but gets more desi when we are in PK.
The v/w are in Indo-Iranian languages allophones of the same phoneme so there is absolutely no percieved difference between them by native speakers, that is the root of the issue.
By the vay it should be
Ve low eweryvon!
My philosophy on accents in foreign language learning is that most people (except those occasional good parrot type people who are good with accents) will never sound native/near native with the accent thing so as long as people can understand you and your accent isn't impeding communication, that's vat counts.
lol... and jus to add.. desis r better at differentiating between k and Q :D
I can't hear the difference between the two t's and d's either, but I learned how to pronounce them properly--the "soft" t is pronounced with your tongue by your teeth. The "hard" t is pronounced with your tongue behind the alveolar ridge.
I still can't hear the difference, but my fiance swears there is one!
I disagree with you on the "no right or wrong," however. True, there are regional differences between how people speak, but as far as I know there is no regional dialect where w and v are allophones!
My husband does pretty good with the v/w thing, but his mother is an english teacher in India and he says she always used to teach the kids to "Bite their lower lip" when pronouncing "V" But he can turn on a more desi accent when he talks to other desis. :-)
for the longest time, several years, i thought my canadian friends were pulling my leg and exaggerating the v/w difference. i really couldn't hear it. perhaps when the alphabet was articulated by itself i could hear a difference but it disappeared as soon as it was embedded in a stream of words.
i am finally past the denial stage. i try to exaggerate my w's now to distinguish them from the v's. the problem remains far from being remedied
Aditya has a perfectly American accent, as long as he's not speaking to other Indians. As soon as he is, though, he takes on some cross between a British and "stereotypical" Indian accent. It's very cute.
...I think he deliberately made an effort to speak with an American accent when he first came to the States for college. Our university was in such a homogeneous region that no one from the area was used to hearing accents, so you really stood out (in a not very positive way) if you did have one.
Oh, wow! Biting the lower lip is how I told a couple of people to do it too, I'm surprised it's the way language teachers do it! I knew more than I thought I did.
We have a running joke in my family about warnish... wans.. etc you get the idea.
V/W - yes when my hubby has spent hours talking with his guy friends it definitely creeps up on him. I have to confess though, I sometimes find myself speaking English with a Pakistani accent at times (why do I do this?) It especially happens when talking to older Pakistanis or Indians. It's quite embarrassing if you don't realize you are doing it and then someone calls you on it (usually my husband - thanks sweetie).
Don't give up on trilling your Rs! It took me literally decades to do it, but I can now roll my Rs perfectly!
There are some ideas on this page. http://www.wikihow.com/Roll-Your-"R"s
Even I find that the D pronunciations are different: there are two types: but I took Spanish so it helps. Practice practice for us who have a hard time with that GH sound. I find that V/W difficult only in some words. Sometimes it is "very," and other times, it is "wery." And, it just catches me off guard. And, he has learned English from a young age and spent hours listening to the BBC and audio books.
Hello, Firstly thank you for writing such a lovely, insightful and interesting blog. I could comment on so many things but this V/W post really made me smile.
I have just got home from an Urdu lesson, and even today I was especially struggling with the Gh sound, and the soft and hard T is not getting easier to distinguish. My teacher reckons when Ive got my whole urdu alphabet down it will become easier. I hope so, coz ive never been able to roll my Rs since i was little, maybe one day it will just click and I can do it!
My bf is Pakistani, but speaks more English as he was mostly raised over here (UK) for his formative years then moved back to Pakistan in late teens. His friends say he sounds too British when he speaks. What really makes me laugh the most is that his Name begins with a 'W' and sometimes he says V as it should be and sometimes it is a hybrid of V/W. No wonder folks cannot pronounce his name when he says it different!.
Anyway - I have only just discovered your wonderful Gori Wife Life so am reading it properly from start in 08 to present day so I may post again in the future.
Maxine
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